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 Time to Prune! 
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:27 pm
Posts: 1147
Location: Yamhill County, Oregon
Post Re: Time to Prune!
Fine Pruning - Yah, I was up and out there again today, excellent weather! - and I was thinking about my comment above about ‘fine pruning,’ as that’s where Bob seemed to have left off. What I’ve come to envision that term means is the work you do within the fruit-producing portion of a tree, as opposed to initial training, heavy pruning or ‘water sprout’ removal (be they 4 or 3/8's inches in diameter). That’s where many folks from the pruning classes I’ve led will lose it.

I recently had a woman ask me to describe the cuts I was making on her trees - as I made them - wow, first, I can’t talk that fast, and second, I don’t know if she really wanted a full description of the various experiences that led me to conclude ‘that’ was a necessary cut. Not quite boring, but somewhat convoluted. So I did, while pruning in extreme slow motion - as she quickly smiled and realized there was a lot more going on in my head than I could accurately describe - and described it as 27 years worth of doing this.

But - that doesn’t mean it’s not understandable, and the best way I’d describe the ‘fine pruning’ process is moving the same techniques used on the interior, or bulk of the tree, to the outside limbs and stems. Most folks recognize fruit spurs, and are justifiably reluctant to remove them. So they avoid doing so and end up leaving way too much material on those outside (fruit producing) limbs! And, they leave far too many buds on the stems they head (or aim to a downward facing bud). I’ve spent hours correcting such work.

By removing anything coming off the top of a limb/stem; anything growing directly off the bottom; and anything crossing another branch that is longer than the branch/stem it’s crossing may safely be removed. And always take such a ‘thinning’ cut back to the limb it came from, leaving no stubs. I’d describe ‘thinning’ as removing branching end-wood that includes new growth and fruit spurs. When, or as you remove those candidates - it magically begins to look right - even professional! And - it is right!

With regard to fruit spurs, Image - those fat multi-angled short-stem things with flower buds inside; you’re not out to remove them just because they emanate from the top or bottom of a branch/stem, but if a more complex branch in an unnecessary position includes them, you may remove them along with that excess material. Fruit spurs are not candidates for runaway growth, that’s what you don’t want, and though they may look weird hanging off the bottom or poking up from the top of a limb when the rest of the tree is pretty much devoid of such action – it’s OK - ignore them, and they will return the favor with blossoms and fruit, year after year in most cases.

The remaining stems contain growth buds; tight buds that formed where last years leaves fell off. They’re set to grow. As you’ve already removed the straight up and straight down stuff from the fruiting area; that leaves the lateral stems which will extend the width of the tree. You always want to head those back (normally to a downward facing bud). If you’ve a young tree and want some decent limb extension, take off less and leave more; if you’re at the edge of a mature tree and want to keep its size in check, you may prune back to one ‘new’ growth bud. In tight quarters I’ll generally leave only two or three, the end bud (next to the cut) facing down. Again, these growth buds are generally on one year old wood, but they can also be on two and three year old wood - but it’s best to prune back to one of them, and not to a fat-budded fruit spur.

I’ve often noticed that fruit spurs will send up a one-season ‘water sprout’ connected to them - it appears to me those feed the fruit forming on that spur - if so, and by my suspicion, I’ll leave one viable growth bud above that that spur, to allow it to send up another ‘next season.’ This is the crazy sounding meticulous stuff commercial growers would likely cringe at - as I suspect there’s no way they could afford to hire anyone to pittle around on their trees to that extent. But as Home Orchardist’s - we can - and do…

Twiggy stuff: here’s another hangup I notice with beginning pruners; they’ll become fixated on twigs. Often ignoring the bulk, or more important cuts, they’ll worry about a 12 inch drooping stem with a fat fruit bud at the end or a punny 1/16 inch diameter stem heading nowhere - Ignore them. They will not run away with the tree but may hang there and produce fruit or spurs - until you cut them off. I’ll prune a tree and begin to admire it - then have the owner question me about the ‘little’ stems poking or hanging from it. Not always fruit spurs – I’ll leave ‘un-headed’ lateral stems and occasional upright ‘water sprouts’ to shade limbs or just leaf out cause they’re doing no damage. - now if someone wants me to spend more time heading every twig - can do ~

- and that’s my best online effort at describing ‘fine pruning.’ If there are any questions - I’ll do my best to find answers that make sense. Otherwise, it’s just me again, easing out of another day in the trees 8)

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Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:51 pm
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Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:46 pm
Posts: 9
Location: Bandon Oregon
Post Re: Time to Prune!
“Second, I need either a bigger ladder or some longer arms. Sheesh! Seriously, there are long tools besides a boom truck, right? How do you get your tall limbs down?”

Excellent question, try this: http://www.homeorchardsociety.org/article/36/ That’s the first thing I noticed, and actually the most dangerous - your step ladder! When you get to the outside ends of these trees you’ll need a very stable, likely 12 to 16 foot orchard ladder. Then’s when you decide how expensive and intensive you want this ‘hobby’ to get. Their stability is unbelievable, and though you can find heavy old wooden ones - I’d recommend an aluminum three-legged orchard ladder. I find I’m less inclined to move my heavy wooden one - so end up leaning more than I should to reach something I’d more easily have repositioned my 8 foot aluminum ...though my wooden one’s taller, and in the case the these big old trees, the only thing that would work. But, with a nice extension (pole) pruner with a ‘rope’ or cable activated cutting blade, you can do a fair amount of work from either the ground or partially up a ladder - though not too high ...as they’re awkward and unstable.

“Today's hunt for such a ladder should be much easier. I'd suggest an online search, or try Teufels Nursery Supply. Never mind the expense- what's a re-set collarbone worth these days? And an Aluminum Ladder should last forever”

My Mother fell out of a Cherry Tree while on a three legged ladder and actually broke her collar bone! Ever since I had regarded them as antiquated and unsafe... I'll re-examine that issue as I definitely need more height & reach. she said it was "an old rickety wooden one", and likely she had limited direction about how to position it, but it was in a level orchard.

As for the chain saw, yeah, a lot of risks involved with using one in a tree... I can at least say I understand the risks.

Any recommendations for a pole saw? Not electric or gas, just a "push pull".


More later....


Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:12 am
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:27 pm
Posts: 1147
Location: Yamhill County, Oregon
Post Re: Time to Prune!
Bob, my Great-uncle fell out of a cherry tree and dislocated his shoulder from a ‘two legged’ aluminum extension ladder. I use that ladder to this day and have no doubt gotten away with some stupid stunts... Hillside or not, if you can spend some time on a tripod ladder, I’d recommend it. I suspect we can fall from anything, but those four-legged step ladders have been the worse by far for me - and fortunately I stopped using them when I was still young and quick enough to land like a cat as they toppled - and I’ve only a couple of years on you ~

Regarding a pole saw, I bought a metal head with a detachable blade that fits onto any length ‘pole’ you want. It’s ok - but often time more work than it’s worth. Mine only cuts on the pull, which I’m fairly sure most do - as you’re best able to apply downward pressure when you drag it down toward you. - with sawdust wafting into your unprotected eyes below - I use mine most limbing fir trees.

Though the metal pole saw head has adjustable angles for the blade, my problem is never being able to get near the torque I can with a ‘hand saw.’ Though it’s still plenty sharp, it seems to take 3 times as long as if I were ‘right there’ with my favorite hand saw (Corona model 49). As it’s such a time waster I only use it as a last resort - when I can’t safely climb into the tree and reach the limb I want gone.

My absolute last resort is a Sears fiberglas extension bypass rope activated blade pruner - say that fast three times! Same reason for using it; when it’s just too darn dangerous to get to where I need to be, and though I’m forever working on it - my meticulous nature precludes me ‘leaving’ anything I feel shouldn’t be there - especially when others agree :roll: Its ratcheting pulley action tends to get caught on nearby branches, and working from a generally ‘upward’ angle I don’t like the ‘angled’ cut it leaves. And, it’s heavy enough that attempting to ‘fine prune’ high stuff is prohibitive. - but if I don’t bring both, I’ll wish I had ~

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Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:43 pm
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:41 pm
Posts: 3
Post Re: Time to Prune!
It's been really great following this conversation! And I have a question.

I recently bought 5 acres and a home in San Diego County in So. California. Although it has mainly avocado trees, I also have many other fruit trees including 3 apple and 3 Asian pear trees. The property and trees have been neglected for several years.

2 of the apple and 3 of the pear trees look to be more than 10 years old. They have grown nearly vertical. The central leader and scaffolding branches are difficult to tell apart. The scaffolds (approx 1.5 to 3 inches in diameter) start off from the main trunk horizontally, but turn vertical very quickly. It makes the tree look like a U with the leader in the middle. The scaffolds and the leader taper-off to long and lanky and reach as high as 25 feet.

Naturally, I’m wanting to prune to reduce the height and widen the spread. But I’m also wondering if there is still a way to spread the existing scaffold limbs. In Michael Phillips’ book The Apple Grower, he mentions a possible method. I want to make certain that I fully understand what he means before I assail these trees with my saw. On p.83, under the heading limb spreading methods, he says: "Notching the underside of a badly angled scaffold allows such a branch to heal into a better position. Chainsaw cuts are quick, but a series of three narrow saw kerfs made one-half to two-thirds of the way through leaves less of an air pocket behind the callus tissue."

My question: Is Mr. Phillips referring to a method that might be used for spreading vertically-oriented limbs so that they might correct my trees' condition? It sounds almost like a modified grafting method, but using the tree’s existing scaffold branches.

I’d really appreciate hearing your answer.

Michael


Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:03 pm
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:27 pm
Posts: 1147
Location: Yamhill County, Oregon
Post Re: Time to Prune!
Interesting question. I’ve not read the book you’ve mentioned or tried what is described, but it appears to be a process of removing what would become the ‘compressed’ (or underside) part of the limb being spread downward. I suspect the ‘kerf cuts’ would come together at a point to match the cambium and the limb would naturally graft itself back together.

My inclination would be to pull it over with my arm - just short of snapping it - then place a spreader-stick between it the two. You can also hang a water-filled plastic milk jug somewhere along the limb you wish to spread, adjusting the amount of water as the leaf load (weight) increases through the season. Or - tie it to a stationary object on the ground, like a concrete block or wooden stake with a nail and pounded into the ground. After one season with such a spread the limb will remain at the new angle.

Personally, I’d avoid the cuts and simply spread the limb in a more conventional manor, especially if you’re not sure what’s meant by that description. Plus, any lateral pressure or torque on a limb cut up to ¾ of the way through will likely snap what little is left. The pressure would have to be perfectly downward in order to compress that (self inflicted) wound.

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Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:55 am
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:41 pm
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Post Re: Time to Prune!
Thank's, Viron, for your thoughtful input into this complex process.

Further Thoughts about Limb-Spreading: I was out pruning this morning and got overwhelmed by the many options available to me. Keeping in mind that I wanted to "open up the tree" I began to make (hopefully) relevant structural cuts, i.e. removing redundant and disruptive scaffold limbs. But, when I began to take into account the option of limb-spreading, many "cuts" became irrelevant or disruptive. I concluded that I had to choose whether or not to do spreading in order to make (or not make) some of the structural cuts. Then there's the possibility that some of the limb spreading might not be successful (i.e. limbs snapping; kerf-causing diseases--if I take the chance). Then there's a need for a backup plan to account for a possible replacement limb. Any comments?

Question: Most of the trees on my property have both structural and height problems. These include stone-fruit, plums and cherimoya as well as apples & pears. My desire would be to try to correct both of these problems.....like today! But, from reading this blog and other sources, I understand that taking too much off a tree at once could be stressful or cause too much compensatory growth. So far, I've been making mainly structural cuts and have been leaving the height (a dozen or more vertical leaders of upwards of 20-25 feet). My questions, Should I: Make structural cuts my priority and address the height next year? Address both? Address both or a mixture of both if I make only a few structural cuts? Address the height only and leave the structural cuts for next year?

Viron, I appreciate the time you take to share your expertise with us "Home Orcharders." I, too, am finding pruning to be very challenging, engaging and rewarding. :D

Sincerely,
Michael


Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:23 pm
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:27 pm
Posts: 1147
Location: Yamhill County, Oregon
Post Re: Time to Prune!
Michael, that’s a very good question about spreading larger limbs before finish pruning. I’ve learned to keep that in mind when sizing up a tree and will start bending & spreading various uprights to see just what they’ll take - and what it will take to move them to a more productive position.

Once I’ve selected the candidates I remove whatever’s in my way, then (generally) tie them over. If you tie, use sturdy twine or even rope on the larger stock, keeping in mind the weather will begin to rot and weaken the material. If - in the course of spreading - any of those limbs snap, you’ve got ‘the rest of the tree to work with. If all goes well bending and securing, prune the entire tree as though the ‘new scaffold branches’ are part of its overall shape.

Again - and I mentioned it to another dedicated volunteer at our societies grafting classes Saturday - Training could be a presentation unto itself! - as we likely envisioned eating up another of our weekends presenting it! Home orchardist’s will often overlook the potential you’ve described. Often, the only thing they’ll see is what doesn’t look right, then remove it. But the process of bending and aiming these large stray shoots can utilize the structure and save years of regrowth replacing it. Plus, you generally have to train replacement shoots anyway, so it’s a good time to deal with the ones you already have, if much larger.

Next: to me, structural cuts do affect height. You don’t want or need your fruit trees 25 feet high! The upper structure will shade out everything below and most of your best fruit will be far out of reach. It would be fun and exciting making some of those kerf cuts you’ve described on the best candidates, knowing that if anything went wrong - so what - the tree would simply send up a multitude of new shoots from the ‘stump’ and you could train those. In fact, that’s likely your best option, from what I envision. If they are central leader trees, there is no way to establish fruiting limbs closer to the ground without removing their centers! If there are ‘branch whirls’ of well established limbs low enough, you may take out the entire central leader just a couple of feet above those limbs and rejuvenate the entire tree. - And, at this stage (especially as the sap begins to flow) those ‘stubs’ would be great candidates for some bark grafting/topworking; adding additional cultivars or changing over the bulk of the existing one.

If I could do that kind of work year-round I’d quit my job and go for it! I’m so pumped at the moment, having studied umpteen ‘topworking’ videos on Youtube and having led the ‘advanced grafting’ portion of our grafting classes on Saturday while going over many of the seemingly crazy grafts I’ve done. - but I’m going off the rails here aren’t I :mrgreen:

I’d make all the major cuts now; that would give you loads of ‘shoots’ to train next year. You can and likely will be watching their progress, so you can summer thin, tip pinch and remove some of the many new shoots activated by those serious cuts. Or, let them alone and pick out & train the winners next near. Hey, you’ve tickled my passion, keep the questions coming or just keep us posted.

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Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:46 pm
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Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:46 pm
Posts: 9
Location: Bandon Oregon
Post Re: Time to Prune!
Viron,

I mostly finished up the heirloom orchard heavy pruning phase today in part thanks to your advice about buying a good fruit ladder. from way up there I learned that working from above is really more effective than working from below. Pictured is the 12' fruit ladder I got and boy does it feel more sturdy than any four legged one, as it is very wide at the base, plus it's much easier to set that foreleg into the thick of things. Of course you knew that... so thanks.

I was able to get all the top out of this tree that I wanted (this is a "before" pic).

Bob


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Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:55 pm
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:27 pm
Posts: 1147
Location: Yamhill County, Oregon
Post Re: Time to Prune!
Industrial strength ladder - Congratulations! It’s a relief to divert the majority of your concentration to the tree -- as opposed to mentally monitoring the instability of a ladder. That’s a husky one, though perfect for large trees.

Now I’m curious about the ‘after pic’

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Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:27 pm
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:41 pm
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Post Re: Time to Prune!
Hi Viron,
Been out “training” and pruning those tall leggy apple and Asian pear trees. The “kerfing” didn’t work. The gap left by the saw could not be bridged by the limb in order to re-connect and re-match the cambium. For my two attempts, the limbs broke off :( . Luckily, I kept replacements in mind.

Question: During my “trainings”, I did plenty of tying down of branches in order to make the trees more horizontal. Closer to the trunk, the limbs are very stiff and only slightly movable. Further away, they are more pliable. How long does it usually take for each width of branch to be “reshaped?” Also, I tended to bend them a bit further than my desired angle, assuming that they would spring back to some degree. Is that assumption correct?

On another (but unrelated) pruning topic, I have an apple tree that seems to be in the middle of a couple of seasonal phases. It is fully leaved, has some flower blooms, yet has a few small fresh apples on it. It is nicely horizontal, but needs some major structural pruning and topping. Should I dive in there now or wait for another time, ie. when it’s dormant? I’ve been here since September, and it hasn’t gone dormant yet. Consider that I’m living in N. San Diego County, about 19 miles in from the ocean, a very temperate climate where it goes below freezing infrequently.
Michael


Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:30 pm
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:27 pm
Posts: 1147
Location: Yamhill County, Oregon
Post Re: Time to Prune!
Michael, yeah, I’d envisioned any ‘lateral torque’ on those limbs just twisting and breaking them. Sorry, though replacements are good.

How long does it usually take for each width of branch to be reshaped?

One year will do it. And they will not spring back - so tie them where you permanently want them. And even though it’s tricky - spreading that stiff portion of branch as far from the trunk as possible - without snapping it off - is better than leaving an arched curve, especially with the end pointing down! What you’ll get with the arch are several strong water suckers shooting off the upper-most portion of the bent branch while the rest of the branch stays about the same diameter.

If you can spread it a bit more (I’ve used rope, pulling for all I was worth and temporarily tying it off somewhere) then wedge a notched ‘spreader stick’ between the two; then leave the end of the branch aiming slightly up (never down), that should do it. Just be careful not to break the branch when spreading. Careful controlled tension ...a little bit at a time has worked for me. You might also put some cushion, like cut innertube around the ends of the notched sticks to keep them from gouging into the bark.

Boy, San Diego! I thought apple trees needed a minimum amount of winter-chilling or dormancy to survive? I’ve heard of some varieties developed in Israel that need very little chilling, but have no experience with what you’ve described. You said the apples are ‘small’ - so that’s undeveloped apples on a fully leafed tree that’s blooming :shock: I’d be tempted to do whatever you think needs doing - or just do it in bits and pieces. You’ve now experienced what would/should have been its dormancy.

Joe Real! - you still around? Any advice? From what I remember - Joe was a contributor from your area doing some amazing grafting on Asian plums. He’s not checked in for quite awhile but would likely have some great advice on the apple pruning cycle... Or anyone else around here, but me ~

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Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:11 pm
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Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:14 am
Posts: 7
Location: Denver, CO
Post Re: Time to Prune!
I thought I'd post a couple of photos showing how I train my trees in case anyone is interested in seeing such things. I'm a big fan of training since it lets me get results fast and means that the energy the tree put into growing a branch doesn't get wasted, which is how I often feel when pruning.

When pruning I often use small twigs to make branch spreaders, but this only works on smaller shoots. For larger branches I used to use the green webbing that some arborists use when staking trees. It works well, but can be a bit awkward and time consuming to set up, and sometimes looks like there is a spider web of the stuff in trees. It also has the disadvantage of confining the branches more than I'd like. If branches and trees can move a bit, they strengthen in response to the constant motion. So now I prefer to hang discarded sash weights (from old houses) or bricks from branches. I like these weights because they're easy to use, durable, super fast to set up and adjust, allow the branches to move in the wind, and cheap. I hang the weights off branches with straps used for staking trees and put a wire through the grommets in the straps. I happened to have a bunch of fence fasteners that come with metal T-posts, and these work really well to attach the brick or sash weight to the strap. When one brick or sash weight isn't enough, I double them up as in the photo below. My trees, or rather the stuff in them, often get comments.

The photos below are of a peach tree that I'm training to a modified central leader, with different varieties on each whorl of limbs.

Chris Kennel
Denver, CO
zone 5


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File comment: peach tree with hanging branch weights
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Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:10 pm
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:27 pm
Posts: 1147
Location: Yamhill County, Oregon
Post Re: Time to Prune!
*My contribution (and quotes) are once again useable on this thread – and if those in the area are interested, here’s this year’s Yamhill County Master Gardener's pruning demonstration information: http://extension.oregonstate.edu/yamhil ... er2012.pdf signup - http://extension.oregonstate.edu/yamhil ... asses-2012

* please note, all; my earlier posts on this subject-thread, along with the vast majority of my forum posts were corrupted by hackers after our battle/s to keep spam and porn off this forum. I’ve reconstructed some, as well as quotes of mine used in the posts of others - in order to make this information available to other fruit enthusiasts. So if some things ‘don’t make sense,’ sorry, they once did ~

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Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:06 pm
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:27 pm
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Location: Yamhill County, Oregon
Post Re: Time to Prune!
The OSU Yamhill County Master Gardener’s had another successful pruning seminar, with only an occasional misting of rain culminating in (for those who hung around afterwards) some sunlight! I believe the attendees hit the program’s maximum enrolment of 20. We spent the bulk of our time discussing one of several (approximately) 15 year old apple and pear trees in the city of Yamhill. As usual, the questions were excellent, demonstrating the advanced knowledge of those completing their OSU Master Gardener status.

We also went over pruning equipment; design, function, maintenance and quality. There were a lot of questions about ‘timing,’ one attendee having heard ‘just this morning’ that it’s “Still too early to prune.” Not in Oregon, or at least our Willamette Valley I suggested, then described a long-time HOS member (and Yamhill County HOS chapter founder) who’d prune as she harvested …in her late 70’s on the family homestead @ 2,000 feet, west of McMinnville, Ore. While watching, I asked her about dieback damage after a hard freeze. She assured me she’d never seen such a thing in all her (seventy-something) years of pruning at that location. My personal experience has shown the same.

I suggested it’s safe to prune apple, pear and European (prune) plum trees at any time, including summer and fall. I did suggest folks hold off pruning peaches until after they’ve bloomed, and wait to prune cherries and Asian plums when several “dry days” are predicted – not ‘warm,’ just dry. We discussed the balance between stored energy & water sucker growth, and how to bring those into balance. We discussed height; most wanting trees they could reach into, like our beautiful subject trees (Thank you Susan!). I suggested height is often dictated by the presence of deer and elk … noting I’d watched a 3 point buck navigating downtown McMinnville last summer, working over roses and fruit trees.

With my usual recommendation of removing everything going: straight up (off a scaffold or lateral limb); straight down; or toward the center – it soon becomes obvious what else is out of place. I suggested keeping lower limbs high enough to mow under, and doing your heaviest pruning in the upper canopy, as that’s where the bulk of the energy goes and shading occurs. Someone pointed out a crossed and “rubbing” branch, so we determined which of the two to remove. We discussed making the “Big cuts,” removing larger limbs as opposed to the multitude of fine pruning and sucker removal. We discussed disease transmission and identification, though fortunately our subject trees appeared disease free.

I described Terminal buds; Lateral buds; and Latent buds. We also identified fruit spurs, or ‘flower buds,’ and pointed out the necessity of leaving them – no matter what direction they’re heading! I demonstrated training a large, well placed water-sucker, as a replacement limb for damaged or missing limbs. We discussed limiting stem growth to only one bud per year, when staying within tight confines. We considered Rootstock; their use and limitations. We even discussed (a little) grafting …as I can rarely help myself – demonstrating a quick whip & tongue graft – always a crowd pleaser 8)

A reoccurring discussion was the establishment and initial pruning of newly purchased trees. As our demo trees were of the same age, the best I could do was demonstrate on a vigorous (6 foot tall) freshly pruned water-sprout. Again, these were great questions. And several folks came armed with photos of older trees in need of some serious long-term pruning and reconstruction. I think we hit on about everything!

I’d also suggested those in attendance log onto our HOS Forum (right here) and that I’d ‘bring this topic to the top,’ and if they’ve any more questions – ask -- and that we’ve a lot of others around here with pruning advice and experience as well. I also let them know how fortunate we are to have such an active group of Home Orchardist’s in this area, the envy of many locals – so use us (and join)! Otherwise – it was a pleasure - yur my kinda people and that’s my kinda fun :mrgreen:

PS, missed you, Randy (ac7nj), you’re an inspiration and asset to this program, Viron

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Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:23 pm
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